The Leap Interview: Mastering the Art of Social Media and Marketing with Jack Appleby

In the ever-changing landscape of social media and marketing, it can be challenging to keep up with the latest trends and strategies. However, there are industry experts like Jack Appleby, the co-founder and CEO of Wethos, who are shaping the way freelancers, independents, and small to medium-sized agencies approach their businesses. Recently, Rachel Renock had the opportunity to catch up with Jack on her podcast, Leap, to discuss his journey, insights, and lessons learned in the world of social media and marketing.

From Agency Life to Independent Business Owner

Jack Appleby's extensive experience in the industry spans over a decade, working with notable brands like Beats by Dre, Microsoft, Twitch, and Spotify. He initially made a name for himself at The Social Method, a social media agency that was later bought by the Eisenberg Group. There, Jack played a pivotal role in growing the team from 15 to 150 people, gaining valuable insights and hands-on experience along the way.

After holding leadership roles at other agencies and even experiencing a layoff during the pandemic, Jack joined Twitch, where he collaborated with Morning Brew and became a full-time content creator for their newsletter, Future Social. Eventually, he took the lead and now runs Future Social independently, focusing on marketing and creator campaigns. Jack's versatility in adapting to various roles and his knack for staying ahead of trends have made him an influential figure in the industry.

The Journey Towards Authenticity on Social Media

Jack Appleby's social media journey started as a means to connect with the advertising industry and explore job opportunities. Initially, he focused on sharing content related to social media strategy, advertising, and work. While this helped him grow his following on Twitter and attract clients for his agency job, Jack soon realized the importance of authenticity and opening up about other aspects of his life.

By sharing personal experiences, life design insights, and deeper thoughts, Jack was able to build a genuine connection with his audience. It was through this transparency that he discovered the power of vulnerability and how it resonates with people on social media. Jack's journey teaches us that being authentic and true to oneself can lead to stronger connections and better engagement with our audience.

Pricing Projects, Finding Value, and Negotiating with Confidence

As freelancers and independent professionals, it's essential to understand the value of our work and price our services accordingly. Jack Appleby advises freelancers to sell projects on a flat rate basis, focusing on the value provided rather than simply charging by the hour. He believes that removing the emotional aspect and anchoring the price to the project's worth helps both parties appreciate the value being offered.

Negotiating pricing can be challenging, but Jack encourages us to have confidence and not negotiate with ourselves. It's crucial to give the high price we believe we deserve, as this pushes the boundaries and shows clients that we stand our ground. By being clear, transparent, and willing to have conflicts if necessary, we can establish our worth and avoid undervaluing ourselves.

Navigating the Ever-Evolving World of Social Media and Marketing

In the world of social media and marketing, staying ahead of trends is vital. Jack Appleby highlights the shift from social graphs to interest graphs, with platforms like TikTok leading the way. As social networks focus more on user interests, the value of followers may continue to diminish. To succeed in such an environment, content creators must focus on creating high-quality content that surpasses their competition.

Understanding the psychology behind pricing and the importance of storytelling are also crucial aspects of marketing. Brands that create content rejected by their audience often misunderstand the interests and expectations of their subscribers. Jack encourages brands to prioritize authenticity and social content that resonates with their audience, avoiding the pitfalls of snarky brand voices that may not always yield desirable results.

Embracing AI Tools and Building a Personal Brand

As technology continues to evolve, it's essential to adapt and embrace the tools available to us. AI tools like Chat GPT can be powerful aids in generating content ideas, overcoming creative barriers, and pushing ourselves to raise our creative bars. These tools help us improve our problem-solving skills and enhance our overall creativity.

Building a personal brand is also critical to success in the industry. Jack Appleby recommends establishing ourselves as thought leaders through content creation and sharing on platforms like LinkedIn. Additionally, networking and building relationships with potential clients can be a valuable source of new business, as referrals often bring trust and credibility to freelancers and independent professionals.

Conclusion: Thriving in the Ever-Changing Landscape

The world of social media and marketing is dynamic, with new trends constantly emerging. But through the insights shared by Jack Appleby, we can navigate this landscape with confidence and creativity. By embracing authenticity, understanding our value, pricing projects effectively, staying ahead of trends, and leveraging AI tools, we can position ourselves as thriving freelancers, independents, and small to medium-sized agencies.

Though the industry may be challenging to keep up with, the expertise and experiences of thought leaders like Jack Appleby can help us not just survive but thrive in this ever-changing world. So let's embrace the opportunities, push our creative boundaries, and continuously evolve to stay at the forefront of social media and marketing.

Watch the full interview on YouTube or listen on Spotify.

Jack Appleby The Leap Interview on YouTube

Jack Appleby The Leap Interview on Spotify

Transcript:

[00:02:31] Rachel Renock: I'm the co-founder and CEO of Wethos, which is a platform that helps freelancers start and scale their freelance businesses.

[00:02:38] Rachel Renock: So make it really easy to price projects, bill your clients, and if you're collaborating with others, split payments.

[00:02:44] Rachel Renock: Call it a virtual studio.

[00:02:45] Rachel Renock: It's a thing.

[00:02:46] Rachel Renock: We're making it a thing.

[00:02:48] Rachel Renock: Every month, I'm interviewing different creative entrepreneurs about their journey to taking the Leap.

[00:02:53] Rachel Renock: This month's guest, I'm really excited about Jack Appleby, which I was just saying before you hopped on, definitely been stalking you on Twitter for a while.

[00:03:00] Rachel Renock: So it's a big moment for me, honestly.

[00:03:05] Rachel Renock: It's the best we're going to get into it, honestly.

[00:03:07] Rachel Renock: But Jack's worked in Social for over a decade.

[00:03:09] Rachel Renock: He's worked with a ton of big brands across feeds by Dre, Microsoft, Twitch, Spotify, like most of my favorite brands, honestly.

[00:03:17] Rachel Renock: And now he's getting back with his newsletter, Future Social, which is part of Morning Brew, which is a really awesome piece around marketing and all things creator and creative, really serving up best in class social and creator campaigns and helping people figure it all out.

[00:03:31] Rachel Renock: Right.

[00:03:31] Rachel Renock: Because this thing's changing all the time and marketing is probably one of the hardest things to keep up with.

[00:03:37] Rachel Renock: So, Jack, again, thank you for joining us.

[00:03:39] Rachel Renock: Really appreciate you taking the time.

[00:03:40] Jack Appleby: Thank you, that was very kind.

[00:03:42] Jack Appleby: Yeah, I'm always excited to talk about this stuff.

[00:03:45] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I'd love to start.

[00:03:47] Interview with Jack Appleby: From Agency to Independence

[00:03:47] Rachel Renock: Talk to us a little bit about your actual journey to independence because I know you were at an agency, I believe you're at RGA, and then you went in house, which are two totally different worlds, I assume.

[00:03:56] Rachel Renock: And then you went and did your own independent thing.

[00:03:59] Rachel Renock: So talk to us just a little bit about the background and how you got to where you're at right now.

[00:04:03] Jack Appleby: Yeah, I mean, a lot of luck, a lot of trying to figure out what I wanted to do and then a lot of Circumstantial stuff.

[00:04:10] Jack Appleby: So I got my started agencies.

[00:04:12] Jack Appleby: Like when I left college, I had no idea what I wanted to do.

[00:04:15] Jack Appleby: It was an old girlfriend's sister who told me, I think you'd be good at social media.

[00:04:21] Jack Appleby: My first interview out of college was at this little tiny social media agency called The Social Method.

[00:04:27] Jack Appleby: That 15 person shop, three months into being there, got bought by an agency called Eisenberg Group, where I was at for five years, and we grew a 15 person team to 150 person departments.

[00:04:41] Rachel Renock: Wow.

[00:04:42] Jack Appleby: And that's where I did a lot of my Microsoft work.

[00:04:44] Jack Appleby: I got a lot of my start in video game marketing.

[00:04:47] Jack Appleby: Source for DC Comics, worked for Warner Brothers Interactive, ran Minecraft, social for a spell, all kinds of interesting, like tech stuff.

[00:04:57] Jack Appleby: And then from there ended up kind of jumping around to start doing leadership roles at other agencies.

[00:05:02] Jack Appleby: Wanted to try my hand at being a director.

[00:05:05] Jack Appleby: Ran strategy teams and departments for a couple different shops for another group of brands, and then finally ended up going.

[00:05:15] Jack Appleby: Moved to New York right before the pandemic.

[00:05:17] Jack Appleby: Started to lead strategy for Verizon through the Hcrga.

[00:05:21] Jack Appleby: And within six months of that was experienced.

[00:05:25] Jack Appleby: My first layoff.

[00:05:26] Jack Appleby: Didn't really know what I wanted to do.

[00:05:29] Jack Appleby: Blessed Twitter.

[00:05:30] Jack Appleby: Twelve minutes after I announced I was laid off, twitch reached out to me and said, would you work here?

[00:05:35] Rachel Renock: Amazing.

[00:05:36] Rachel Renock: We love it.

[00:05:37] Jack Appleby: Yes, I would.

[00:05:38] Jack Appleby: So then I went to Twitch, and then pretty much the whole time I was at Twitch Morning Brew and I had been chatting about, okay, the joke was always I was doing a fake Morning Brew impersonation on my own.

[00:05:50] Jack Appleby: I always been one of those guys and eventually figured out how to make me a full time content creator for them.

[00:05:56] Jack Appleby: So now I write about social media full time.

[00:05:59] Rachel Renock: Amazing.

[00:06:00] A Conversation with Jack Appleby: On Being Independent and Running Future Social

[00:06:00] Rachel Renock: So would you consider yourself independent or do you work full time?

[00:06:04] Rachel Renock: At Morning Brew.

[00:06:05] Rachel Renock: Like, where's that?

[00:06:05] Rachel Renock: I guess that line for you both mentally and on paper.

[00:06:10] Jack Appleby: So I actually am independent and I actually now own Future social in full.

[00:06:16] Jack Appleby: So Morning Brew helped me start it and they've been wonderful, wonderful, wonderful.

[00:06:20] Jack Appleby: And then now I'm running it on my own.

[00:06:22] Jack Appleby: So now I consider myself independent.

[00:06:24] Jack Appleby: I'm still working through, title wise, what that means, because I'm still in that phase where I get weird about being called a creator.

[00:06:33] Jack Appleby: So I call myself a writer most of the time.

[00:06:35] Jack Appleby: But yeah, my vision for the next year is write the newsletter, work with brands for my social, and then consult where it makes sense.

[00:06:43] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I totally get that.

[00:06:45] Rachel Renock: And if it makes you any better, I guess this is something that we hear all the time.

[00:06:48] Rachel Renock: And it was also something that I struggled with when I went like, freelance.

[00:06:52] Rachel Renock: And we have a joke that's like, if you call yourself a freelancer, you could charge $5.

[00:06:55] Rachel Renock: If you call yourself a consultant, you could charge $50.

[00:06:57] Rachel Renock: Call yourself a studio, you could charge $500.

[00:06:59] Rachel Renock: If you call yourself an agency, you could charge $500,000.

[00:07:04] Rachel Renock: It really, actually kind of comes down to however you want to position to your clients probably at any given moment, because I feel like that's constantly in flux, at least absolutely, that's what we hear.

[00:07:14] Jack Appleby's Successful Approach to Social Media and Personal Branding

[00:07:14] Rachel Renock: I want to dig in a little bit because I think one of the things that I really admire about your approach to social in general is how dynamic I think you're able to, I don't know, bring out different parts of yourself or different parts of your personality based on the different channels.

[00:07:26] Rachel Renock: And I think that one thing that I honestly grapple with is like, who am I on Twitter versus Instagram versus TikTok, where I'm just watching mostly.

[00:07:36] Rachel Renock: But each of those channels has its own sort of context to it and it does sometimes feel a little bit like you're splitting identities or something.

[00:07:45] Rachel Renock: I guess I just wanted to get a little bit as essential with it for a second and kind of kick off with how do you kind of grapple with that?

[00:07:51] Rachel Renock: Is it something that you grapple with?

[00:07:53] Rachel Renock: And then how do you think about how that impacts your strategy moving forward and how you want to remain authentic while being native to those channels?

[00:08:00] Jack Appleby: There's so many pieces of that.

[00:08:03] Rachel Renock: Let's unpack it.

[00:08:04] Jack Appleby: Well, it's funny.

[00:08:05] Jack Appleby: Instagram is the only platform that I don't personally use for business.

[00:08:10] Jack Appleby: This is strictly for fun for me.

[00:08:12] Jack Appleby: I post emo music and basketball clips and thoughts on movies.

[00:08:15] Jack Appleby: And I've intentionally not use this platform strategically because I have a Twitter following.

[00:08:19] Jack Appleby: I have a LinkedIn following.

[00:08:21] Jack Appleby: I have two different TikToks with followings.

[00:08:23] Jack Appleby: I have enough platforms where this one's strictly for fun, figuring out who I was on the Internet.

[00:08:30] Jack Appleby: It both came naturally to me.

[00:08:32] Jack Appleby: And then I had my own existential crisis.

[00:08:36] Jack Appleby: The reason I started making content was after being at that first agency for five years, I just realized I didn't know anybody in my own industry.

[00:08:44] Jack Appleby: I just knew my coworkers.

[00:08:45] Jack Appleby: Like, oh, I'm just going to start tweeting to meet people that work in advertising, maybe meet some people who can hire me someday.

[00:08:53] Jack Appleby: And then the first time I ever wrote a thread, only like 6000 followers.

[00:08:58] Jack Appleby: First time I ever wrote a thread, it got picked up by Buzfeed and Cosmo and Fox News and all these outlets just because there weren't a lot of people writing about this.

[00:09:07] Jack Appleby: I was like, oh, there's something here.

[00:09:10] Jack Appleby: So then it kind of became a source of business for me and it was strictly like to your question about identity, it was a very one side of me.

[00:09:20] Jack Appleby: For a long time, all I talked about on social was social media strategy, content strategy, advertising, work, thoughts.

[00:09:28] Jack Appleby: And that worked great for me.

[00:09:30] Jack Appleby: I built 50,000 followers on Twitter.

[00:09:32] Jack Appleby: By doing that, I mean, one of my agency jobs, every single client that I worked with at that agency was one that I brought in through Twitter.

[00:09:40] Rachel Renock: Wow.

[00:09:40] Jack Appleby: Including like Spotify, Cold, DMed me on Twitter to work with the creating content has been really beneficial for my career over the last, let's say like two years, maybe even last year.

[00:09:56] Jack Appleby: I've kind of become just a lot more open about the rest of my life and what's going on there.

[00:10:02] Jack Appleby: And I've always been really interested in life design.

[00:10:05] Jack Appleby: I think work life balance is too much of a simplification because it doesn't actually address what our goals are as people and what we're hoping to achieve, how much money we want to make, all those kind of thoughts.

[00:10:16] Jack Appleby: And I just enjoy writing.

[00:10:18] Jack Appleby: I'm a classic overshare.

[00:10:20] Jack Appleby: I could probably work to pull it back a little bit, but it does lend itself to just writing.

[00:10:27] Jack Appleby: And at some point, when I started being really open and honest about everything going on in my life, and it seemed to resonate with people, and it seems, I think, too, the reaction I got a lot of the time was it colored who I was to people in a way where it's like, okay, he's not just like, some advertising guy.

[00:10:44] Jack Appleby: He's not just one of those other dudes who's, like, a thought leader or whatever term you want to do, which I think it's unfair how we throw that at people.

[00:10:54] Jack Appleby: But yeah, it's been a journey to figure out how to share my voice, for sure.

[00:10:58] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:10:59] Breaking Down Social Media: Strategies and Curiosities

[00:10:59] Rachel Renock: We actually have a good question in the chat here about strategically in terms of being one of the first people to talk about social media.

[00:11:06] Rachel Renock: And I know you'd mentioned earlier when you first got into the space and this happened to me similarly when I entered the workforce, it was 2013 and my first job is an art director.

[00:11:16] Rachel Renock: I worked on CoverGirl and they were like, you're young.

[00:11:19] Rachel Renock: You do the instagram account?

[00:11:21] Rachel Renock: So there I am, literally shooting the Instagram account.

[00:11:23] Rachel Renock: I'm like 23.

[00:11:25] Rachel Renock: And it was like that early days.

[00:11:27] Rachel Renock: It was like that a lot.

[00:11:28] Rachel Renock: And we forget how short of a period it's been.

[00:11:32] Rachel Renock: It's only been ten years since then, right?

[00:11:34] Rachel Renock: And obviously things have come a long way.

[00:11:36] Rachel Renock: So I'm curious in terms of how you think about yourself in the course of that digital media, the rise of, I guess, digital media and being like an early adopter to filling the gap around social media that wasn't taken seriously until, I don't know, six, seven years ago.

[00:11:52] Jack Appleby: You know, I don't think I was doing it strategically, outwardly.

[00:11:57] Jack Appleby: I think for me, it was as simple as I wanted more of my ideas to get made, so I made it a priority to figure out how to sell social media internally.

[00:12:11] Jack Appleby: I was confident that my account executives weren't pitching my content correctly and I wasn't nearly senior enough to fight to be in the room.

[00:12:17] Jack Appleby: So I did everything possible to go be part of those rooms.

[00:12:20] Jack Appleby: Like, I took speaking classes, I took improv classes.

[00:12:23] Jack Appleby: I started dressing nicer.

[00:12:24] Jack Appleby: I started trying to shadow people that were more senior than me because I became fascinated by the I had this idea that I could explain social maybe better than other people could.

[00:12:33] Jack Appleby: And again, it was purely selfish.

[00:12:35] Jack Appleby: I wanted my ideas to get made more often and that became part of the shift on Twitter, which is like breaking down complexities in social to make it a little more understandable.

[00:12:48] Jack Appleby: And again, it was mostly because I thought it was just fun.

[00:12:51] Jack Appleby: There was never a goal to be a full time content creator.

[00:12:54] Jack Appleby: I never had that vision for myself at all and just kind of happened, maybe because I wasn't so incredibly focused on I was just doing what came natural to me as far as content strategy goes.

[00:13:06] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I do feel like there is a lot of proactive and natural curiosity throughout all of these things that you're talking about.

[00:13:15] Rachel Renock: Right.

[00:13:15] Rachel Renock: And I think that people underestimate curiosity as a really huge strength in just I just want to understand how does that system work or why is that the way that it is.

[00:13:26] Rachel Renock: And just being naturally curious leads to seeing opportunities that maybe other people wouldn't see.

[00:13:31] Rachel Renock: At least that's kind of what I'm also hearing.

[00:13:33] Jack Appleby: That is my biggest superpower, who I am as a person is all about curiosity.

[00:13:40] Jack Appleby: All I do is read and then read about reading.

[00:13:44] Jack Appleby: I always joke, like, don't go to a movie with me because if we go to a bar afterwards, I'm just going to be reading 5 hours articles about said movie.

[00:13:53] Jack Appleby: I've enjoyed social since I got in the industry.

[00:13:56] Jack Appleby: I find messaging to communities fascinating.

[00:13:58] Jack Appleby: I find the way people represent themselves on the internet fascinating.

[00:14:01] Jack Appleby: So I just consumed a ton of it and really spent a lot of time theorizing about it.

[00:14:08] Jack Appleby: Like, why does content perform?

[00:14:10] Jack Appleby: One of the things is something I see on marketing Twitter that just drives me absolutely insane, is people go, I don't understand.

[00:14:18] Jack Appleby: I can never predict what goes viral on TikTok.

[00:14:20] Jack Appleby: And quite literally, if you work in content strategy, it's your job to know how to do that kind of stuff.

[00:14:26] Jack Appleby: To me, virality is not an accident.

[00:14:28] Jack Appleby: It's something that can be manufactured, and that doesn't mean it's inauthentic.

[00:14:31] Jack Appleby: You can do all I've recreated with brands, I've recreated for myself.

[00:14:37] Jack Appleby: That's part of the gig.

[00:14:39] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:14:40] Rachel Renock: What I'm hearing you say is that that natural curiosity gives you the strength enough to really unpack what are the patterns that we're seeing in things that are working versus not working.

[00:14:50] Rachel Renock: That pattern recognition and being able to pull things apart, simplify it, and then recreate.

[00:14:56] Rachel Renock: I love that process.

[00:14:57] Rachel Renock: It's such a it's fun, it's funny.

[00:15:00] Jack Appleby: We think about TikTok and the For You page as like, that is the most incredible algorithm we've ever seen.

[00:15:05] Jack Appleby: As far as content delivery goes.

[00:15:06] Jack Appleby: It's better than YouTube, it's better than Netflix.

[00:15:08] Jack Appleby: It's amazing.

[00:15:09] Jack Appleby: But what it's also sorry, I said.

[00:15:12] Rachel Renock: It sees me and it's deep.

[00:15:15] Jack Appleby: One of my favorite party trips is making everybody pull up their phones and show the first five TikToks at the beginning.

[00:15:19] Rachel Renock: Oh, my God, I'm on Copy Bar Talk right now, and we don't even talk about this right now, but it would be weird if I did that at this point.

[00:15:26] Jack Appleby: Incredible.

[00:15:28] Jack Appleby: But the thing that I think is so amazing about that, too, if you work in social, is it's literally showing you what content is performing at a global scale.

[00:15:38] Jack Appleby: The algorithm is giving you not only stuff that's for you, but it's custom for you.

[00:15:43] Jack Appleby: But at the same time, there's a reason we all see the same video still, because there are certain global greatest hits and you should be able to look at that content and break it down and understand what best practices are being used there to generate results.

[00:15:55] Jack Appleby: I really believe that.

[00:15:57] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:15:57] Rachel Renock: I mean, it is by nature formulaic, right?

[00:15:59] Rachel Renock: Because it is an algorithm.

[00:16:00] Rachel Renock: So by nature, it's picking up on certain patterns and signals and things.

[00:16:04] Rachel Renock: In the videos, I think people overestimate how much of a black box it is, quote, unquote, when in reality, it really does just kind of like digging into the analysis of it and looking for those patterns and the formulas in there, I think.

[00:16:20] Jack Appleby: Yeah.

[00:16:20] Jack Appleby: I mean, shortly after we finish up here, I'm giving a talk to a Syracuse social media class, and the talk is how there's only two best practices we can learn.

[00:16:30] Jack Appleby: All these ratios and timeframes and all this stuff.

[00:16:33] Jack Appleby: All that matters is, do you have a great creative idea and do you have a great creative can do?

[00:16:39] Jack Appleby: If you have both of those covered, you can do almost everything else wrong.

[00:16:44] Rachel Renock: And get massive yeah, totally.

[00:16:47] Rachel Renock: Syracuse University.

[00:16:49] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I went there.

[00:16:50] Jack Appleby: Oh, funny.

[00:16:51] Rachel Renock: And I'm from Syracuse.

[00:16:52] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I'm like a full blown.

[00:16:55] Jack Appleby: To that.

[00:16:56] Jack Appleby: Yeah, I'm trying to do like more.

[00:16:57] Jack Appleby: I love working with students, so I got offered to do like a guest lecture.

[00:17:00] Rachel Renock: I was like, oh, absolutely, that's awesome, man.

[00:17:02] Rachel Renock: That's so cool to hear.

[00:17:04] Jack Appleby on Going Independent and the Financial Aspects of Social Media Jobs

[00:17:04] Rachel Renock: So in terms of your own independent business, can we unpack just a little bit around your journey to independence?

[00:17:11] Rachel Renock: What that's looked like for you?

[00:17:12] Rachel Renock: I'd love to talk about the title situation.

[00:17:15] Rachel Renock: What are you thinking about when you're thinking about what to call it or what to call yourself, how do you unpack that?

[00:17:21] Jack Appleby: I mean, the journey to independence is terrifying.

[00:17:26] Jack Appleby: From a very early age, it seemed like I was going to be on a CMO path or running a strategy department, like a CSO type of role.

[00:17:35] Jack Appleby: I showed up a lot of aptitude for it early.

[00:17:37] Jack Appleby: It seemed like it was going to be the very obvious path for me during pandemic and partially because how the world's changed.

[00:17:45] Jack Appleby: I do not like work from home.

[00:17:47] Jack Appleby: I do not like managing people from home.

[00:17:49] Jack Appleby: I think it's incredibly hard to teach people from home.

[00:17:52] Jack Appleby: And it really encouraged me to rediscover what I enjoyed about this industry.

[00:17:57] Jack Appleby: And the reality is I enjoy doing the work.

[00:17:59] Jack Appleby: I love coaching and teaching.

[00:18:01] Jack Appleby: I'm doing this thing right now where I'm giving away free career coaching sessions every day in February and March to anybody in the first five years of their career because I love doing mentorship stuff, but I don't love managing.

[00:18:13] Jack Appleby: So what I wanted was for my full time role to be more like in the tech world they called an independent contributor, where when I worked at Twitch, I went from five years of running strategy teams to going to a senior creative strategist role that paid me significantly more than when I ran teams at agencies to just do the work myself.

[00:18:35] Jack Appleby: And I had a blast.

[00:18:36] Jack Appleby: It was so much fun.

[00:18:37] Jack Appleby: I was making three decks a week of creative ideas for how brands can work with creators there.

[00:18:43] Jack Appleby: And eventually just what became clear through these last couple of years is candidly there's a lot of money to be made on the independent side.

[00:18:52] Jack Appleby: The only reason I'm going independent now with my life is because it's financially irresponsible for me not to.

[00:19:01] Jack Appleby: I like working with teams, I love having collaborators.

[00:19:05] Jack Appleby: And the biggest fear for me is that I'm now like, there's only one person in my business, it's me.

[00:19:11] Jack Appleby: And I'm debating if I wanted a manager or like a project coordinator or a PM of some sort or assistant, but no, working by myself was never the goal because I love collaborating with people, but now it just worked too much.

[00:19:26] Jack Appleby: It's that simple.

[00:19:27] Rachel Renock: I love that.

[00:19:29] Rachel Renock: I like, oh my God, I want to play that sound bite every morning when I wake up.

[00:19:32] Rachel Renock: It's financially responsible to not be independent.

[00:19:34] Rachel Renock: But it's true.

[00:19:35] Rachel Renock: I think right now there is a lot of money for grabs out there.

[00:19:41] Rachel Renock: I think a lot of people are spending in this space in general.

[00:19:43] Rachel Renock: And like I said, I think it is just really about how you're framing yourself and your services to the client and the types of clients that you're going after.

[00:19:53] Jack Appleby: This is one of the things I really push for in social is, I think, more transparency for salaries and jobs and the realities of it, as well as bigger talks about what you can accomplish in that space.

[00:20:06] Jack Appleby: There is a lot of people that work in social that are really taken advantage of and have to work way too hard.

[00:20:12] Jack Appleby: I also think there's a lot of people who don't realize that there are ways to get paid significant money in social media.

[00:20:19] Jack Appleby: Like when I was at Twitch, I cleared a $200,000 salary to do creative strategy ideas on one salary.

[00:20:26] Jack Appleby: And that's a pretty specialized job.

[00:20:28] Jack Appleby: But those jobs do exist and I was somebody who prioritized financial that was big to me and there's a lot of jobs that I really hated that I took for strictly money reasons.

[00:20:39] Jack Appleby: There's other people who might want to go strictly based on subject matter or type of role and there's no wrong answer to this stuff.

[00:20:46] Jack Appleby: But I don't think there's enough conversation around if you want to go the different trigger tree of cool.

[00:20:53] Jack Appleby: I can go make X amount if I'm willing to give up ABC or vice versa.

[00:20:58] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:20:59] Forecasting the Financial Worth of Freelance Work and Controlling the Value of Your Own Time

[00:20:59] Rachel Renock: How did you think about translating what you were making in a full time role to being independent?

[00:21:05] Rachel Renock: Do you lean more hourly based?

[00:21:07] Rachel Renock: Do you lean more value based pricing or flat rates?

[00:21:10] Rachel Renock: How did you translate that?

[00:21:11] Jack Appleby: So when I do consulting, the best advice I got was to always sell projects I really try to flat and I'm very lucky.

[00:21:22] Jack Appleby: I've built an audience for myself.

[00:21:24] Jack Appleby: So almost all my consulting work is inbound to work with me.

[00:21:27] Jack Appleby: I don't have to pitch myself very often and I can charge a premium for it.

[00:21:32] Jack Appleby: So I'm usually pitching my own projects.

[00:21:35] Jack Appleby: I'm usually pricing them out myself and telling them what the delivery is going to look like.

[00:21:40] Jack Appleby: And I've had some like I'm still new to it.

[00:21:42] Jack Appleby: It's in the last six months that I've been doing this, but by doing it that way I'm able to kind of value my own time as I see fit.

[00:21:51] Jack Appleby: If we're being honest, I'm probably twice as fast as they think I am a lot of the time because I've been doing this for a long time and I don't want them to have the right to tell me what I'm worth per hour.

[00:22:00] Jack Appleby: I want them to tell me how much the project I'm doing is worth for them.

[00:22:04] Rachel Renock: Yes.

[00:22:05] Rachel Renock: I could not agree more.

[00:22:06] Rachel Renock: I mean, so much of even our software is built on this premise when we first published our library of templates and data around how people are pricing.

[00:22:16] Rachel Renock: We publish our own data first from our own freelance agency.

[00:22:19] Rachel Renock: And it's so important that you're not only breaking all that down for the client, but what you said there at the end, take the price tag off of yourself and put a price tag on the work.

[00:22:31] Rachel Renock: Helps you kind of remove yourself emotionally, I think, from this idea of how do I put a dollar amount of my worth as a person.

[00:22:39] Rachel Renock: How do you just slap one dollars on there?

[00:22:41] Rachel Renock: It's not nuanced enough.

[00:22:44] Rachel Renock: And it creates a layer of, or a lack of, I guess, objectivity to which we make decisions based on our emotions of how to price what I think I'm worth or how I feel about myself versus what is this work worth to my client.

[00:23:01] Rachel Renock: If I'm a logo for my client and it's going to be on literally everything that they have, every owned property, how much is that logo worth?

[00:23:07] Rachel Renock: Is it worth $5 or is it worth $500 or is it worth $5,000?

[00:23:11] Jack Appleby: And I think that's worth thinking about whether you're doing freelance work or if you're just even interviewing, don't be wrong.

[00:23:20] Jack Appleby: You got to back into dollars per hour at some point.

[00:23:25] Jack Appleby: I asked around, what are people getting paid?

[00:23:28] Jack Appleby: I heard on the senior end, people are getting paid $1,500 day rate is a very high day rate, but it does exist.

[00:23:36] Rachel Renock: Oh yeah.

[00:23:36] Jack Appleby: So I just decided you're not getting my work for less than that.

[00:23:41] Jack Appleby: And some people have the brands I really want to work with.

[00:23:44] Jack Appleby: But I think it's something really important with both the pricing of freelance and when you're interviewing, if you're at the point where they want to work with you, give the high price, don't negotiate with yourself.

[00:23:57] Jack Appleby: Give the price that you want or you think you deserve.

[00:24:00] Jack Appleby: And the common advice that your price should scare you a little bit because if you're far enough down a discussion, no one's going to ghost you or walk away from you because of your price.

[00:24:11] Jack Appleby: They're going to give you feedback on the price.

[00:24:13] Jack Appleby: And then that allows you to decide, is this worth it?

[00:24:16] Jack Appleby: Whether it's a full time role or a freelance project.

[00:24:19] Rachel Renock: Totally.

[00:24:20] Rachel Renock: And the psychology around that, around pricing and price anchoring too, is interesting in that way too, especially in the services business.

[00:24:26] Rachel Renock: Because I actually lost as a lesson I learned one day I lost a bid to my old agency when I was independent and I came in at 50,000.

[00:24:33] Rachel Renock: They came in literally like half a million or something like that crazy.

[00:24:37] Rachel Renock: We lost that contract and we lost it because our price felt too good to be true.

[00:24:42] Jack Appleby: Right?

[00:24:43] Rachel Renock: And it's like, yo, I used to work there.

[00:24:45] Rachel Renock: Literally.

[00:24:46] Rachel Renock: It's the same talent.

[00:24:46] Rachel Renock: It's a service based business, the same talent.

[00:24:48] Rachel Renock: But you're paying an inflated price for what reason?

[00:24:52] Rachel Renock: And so the lesson there though was absolutely like, if you shoot too low, then that can also have the opposite effect.

[00:24:59] Rachel Renock: It's not like everybody's just going to say yes to that, especially in this business.

[00:25:01] Rachel Renock: They're going to think, is this person going to be high quality?

[00:25:06] Rachel Renock: It doesn't pass.

[00:25:07] Rachel Renock: Absolutely to be careful with that.

[00:25:09] Jack Appleby: Again, it's a confidence thing.

[00:25:12] Jack Appleby: It's being willing to have conflicts thing.

[00:25:14] Jack Appleby: It's really important if you want to go make money for yourself.

[00:25:17] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:25:19] The Evolution of Content in Social Media: A Discussion with Jack Appleby

[00:25:19] Rachel Renock: So I wanted to ask before we get to our last question around folks who are going to be taking the leap or maybe just took the leap, I just want to ask a lot is changing in a lot of ways.

[00:25:32] Rachel Renock: I don't even know AI to crypto, to what's happening in the marketing world.

[00:25:35] Rachel Renock: The algorithm is changing now.

[00:25:37] Rachel Renock: It's real.

[00:25:38] Rachel Renock: No more reels.

[00:25:38] Rachel Renock: We're doing stills again.

[00:25:40] Rachel Renock: Whiplash, what do you think if you had to say in the next ten years in the field of, I guess, like marketing or branding or creative is going to change and what do you think will actually stay the same?

[00:25:51] Jack Appleby: I think the big thing that's happened in the last two weeks and it's going to continue happening, is all of these social networks really want to work off of interest graphs instead of social graphs.

[00:26:03] Jack Appleby: So Frame is not familiar with those.

[00:26:05] Jack Appleby: Traditionally, like, over the last decade, social networks were built off of social graphs, meaning the content you received in your feed was generally based on the accounts that you follow.

[00:26:16] Jack Appleby: Basic social media, Facebook, Twitter, like the way Instagram used to work.

[00:26:21] Jack Appleby: TikTok was one of the most prominent interest based graphs where it understands at its base level things like hashtags, but really it understands psychologically what you're consuming, how you consume it, what content you engage with, whether just through view time or even just traditional engagements.

[00:26:39] Jack Appleby: And TikToks time spent in app destroyed every other app in social media, like by threefold.

[00:26:49] Jack Appleby: And this is where when make Instagram, Instagram again became a thing and then Be Real had its hot moments.

[00:26:56] Jack Appleby: I was just kind of laughing because guys, the problem is not that these apps are moving away from this.

[00:27:02] Jack Appleby: The problem is you all like TikTok more than you admit and your friend's content isn't that good.

[00:27:11] Jack Appleby: Most of us regular humans do not have that many interesting things to say with much frequency.

[00:27:19] Rachel Renock: That's so boring to me.

[00:27:20] Rachel Renock: I find it horrifically boring.

[00:27:21] Jack Appleby: People joke about like, oh, I see baby announcements and I see engagement announcements.

[00:27:26] Jack Appleby: Yeah, because those are significant life events that people actually engage with that then get through the algorithm.

[00:27:34] Jack Appleby: You don't want to see your favorite influencers.

[00:27:35] Jack Appleby: You want to see more of your friends.

[00:27:37] Jack Appleby: Stop following the influencer step.

[00:27:39] Jack Appleby: I don't tell you, but what we're seeing now is obviously Instagram reels is interest graph based.

[00:27:47] Jack Appleby: Twitter now has a for you feed they're trying to get and.

[00:27:50] Jack Appleby: The Twitter's been trying to crack this for years.

[00:27:51] Jack Appleby: They were just really bad at it before, and now they're getting I don't know, they're getting closer.

[00:27:57] Rachel Renock: I would say the intention is clearer.

[00:27:59] Jack Appleby: At least the intention is clear.

[00:28:00] Rachel Renock: Before, it was not clear.

[00:28:01] Rachel Renock: I was like, why am I seeing random things in my feed?

[00:28:03] Rachel Renock: And I don't know.

[00:28:04] Jack Appleby: Yeah, but that's going to keep happening.

[00:28:08] Jack Appleby: It does call into question where I think the value of followers is going to continue to drop.

[00:28:15] Jack Appleby: And this is funny.

[00:28:18] Jack Appleby: It's where I hear so many social media professionals, like, bemoan TikTok and how they're like it feels so random.

[00:28:24] Jack Appleby: I feel like I don't know what's going to perform or another the greatest hits that I see that drives me nuts is, don't you hate it when that video that you spent hours and hours working on doesn't perform, but the one you thought of last minute that you just filmed real quick performs?

[00:28:37] Jack Appleby: Guys, this is our jobs.

[00:28:39] Jack Appleby: We need to be able to do this.

[00:28:41] Jack Appleby: And it's kind of hot take, but if we're all paid to be content professionals, whether we're strategists or creatives or whatever, and all these social networks are going more interest graph, that should lend itself to us, that should be music to our ears because we should be able to make better content than anybody else out there.

[00:29:03] Rachel Renock: So I think we just have allegedly.

[00:29:05] Jack Appleby: Allegedly, I think that's the thing that we have to focus on.

[00:29:08] Jack Appleby: It's like, we got to keep making better content and we got to be very honest about what is and is not good content.

[00:29:14] Rachel Renock: Yeah, that's such an interesting way to frame it in terms of the social graph versus the interest graph.

[00:29:19] Rachel Renock: TikTok is like YouTube meets Instagram.

[00:29:22] Rachel Renock: I suppose it's kind of sort of combining the nature of both, but at the same time, you're totally right.

[00:29:26] Rachel Renock: When I see somebody I know on my.

[00:29:31] Jack Appleby: Yeah, this is like early at.

[00:29:37] Jack Appleby: I won't say what agency or client.

[00:29:39] Jack Appleby: I was working with a client who had a video series, and this predated me getting there, that they spent like four or $5 million on the content, and it was on their YouTube channel, and it was meant to only live on YouTube channel.

[00:29:53] Jack Appleby: Strategically, it made sense.

[00:29:54] Jack Appleby: It was a brand that probably had no reason to have YouTube followers.

[00:29:57] Jack Appleby: They had an idea to make a type of content for it.

[00:30:01] Jack Appleby: When I came in, I was like, oh, my God, I didn't know I was inheriting this thing.

[00:30:04] Jack Appleby: This thing is hot garbage.

[00:30:05] Jack Appleby: And the videos were getting hundreds of views, and I was like, Guys, how is this possible?

[00:30:14] Jack Appleby: And I knew the content was bad, but how is this possible, guys?

[00:30:18] Jack Appleby: And they're like, well, there's no paid yet.

[00:30:20] Jack Appleby: I'm like, you should accidentally be getting 10,000 views on these videos with the size of Brandon.

[00:30:26] Jack Appleby: We are.

[00:30:27] Jack Appleby: Really?

[00:30:28] Jack Appleby: What you told me is you've strategically misunderstood your subscribers so badly, and even just basic social media algorithms so badly that the whole world has rejected a $4 million content series.

[00:30:43] Rachel Renock: Happens all the time, unfortunately.

[00:30:47] Jack Appleby: I'll call out one brand that I worked with.

[00:30:49] Jack Appleby: I get more phone calls about my time with Beats than any brand I've ever worked with, and I made more pointless content at that job than any job ever.

[00:30:59] Rachel Renock: Why do people call you about it?

[00:31:01] Jack Appleby: They're just interested in beats.

[00:31:03] Jack Appleby: They're curious to hear what that was like.

[00:31:05] Jack Appleby: And, like, listen, I did a lot, so I'm really proud of like, I worked in NBA Finals campaign, worked with some of my favorite basketball players of all time.

[00:31:13] Jack Appleby: But I also produced a lot of athletes in a locker room, slow pan up to them, bo over them with smoke coming up.

[00:31:22] Jack Appleby: It was like fake Nike commercials that were living on Twitter and Instagram.

[00:31:29] Jack Appleby: This is harsh, but I felt like I was making pointless content.

[00:31:31] Jack Appleby: They're just mini commercials, and there wasn't anything social about.

[00:31:36] Jack Appleby: Like, these big brands, they love to spend money.

[00:31:38] Jack Appleby: And I think only recently, like, in the last couple of years, are they learning to love social.

[00:31:43] Rachel Renock: I agree.

[00:31:44] Rachel Renock: I completely agree.

[00:31:45] Rachel Renock: I feel like I know now it's gotten so meta, though, that now when you see a brand being having a personality personality, and then the brands are responding to each other, and it gets into, like it's like, ravels.

[00:32:03] Jack Appleby: There's a lot of brands that jump the shark.

[00:32:06] Jack Appleby: I'm personally really anti the Snarky brand thing.

[00:32:10] Jack Appleby: I think it's far more targeted to one specific audience than we admit.

[00:32:14] Jack Appleby: I hate when we call, like, Internet voice.

[00:32:17] Jack Appleby: I'm sorry.

[00:32:18] Jack Appleby: Everyone uses the Internet, not just Twitter people.

[00:32:22] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:32:23] Jack Appleby: Not just Elon and his.

[00:32:26] Jack Appleby: Like, I think Wendy's crushed it because they were the first, and it was really unique.

[00:32:31] Jack Appleby: And then now it's like, I don't know, guys, is this actually driving results for your business?

[00:32:37] Jack Appleby: Are you just getting random likes because ha ha, brands doing this is actually driving goals and also just be more strategically clever and creative than just copying the same brand over and over again?

[00:32:49] Rachel Renock: Yeah, in terms of copying shit over and over and over again.

[00:32:54] Rachel Renock: I feel like that's one of my biggest struggles with content creation, is getting bored of the same formats over and over again.

[00:33:01] Discussion on Content Trends and the Future of Social

[00:33:01] Rachel Renock: And I guess I'm curious, in terms of what won't change, does anything come to mind for you on the creative marketing side?

[00:33:11] Jack Appleby: You mean as far as, like, content trends?

[00:33:13] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:33:14] Rachel Renock: Over the next ten years.

[00:33:16] Rachel Renock: I totally agree on the whole interest graph, social graph.

[00:33:20] Rachel Renock: Moving more towards that.

[00:33:21] Rachel Renock: I also think the multimedia sound video that is going to continue to grow.

[00:33:25] Rachel Renock: Is there any trend that you're seeing or that has been true, I guess, for the last ten years that you think will continue to be true?

[00:33:33] Jack Appleby: So I'm a big fan of Mr.

[00:33:36] Jack Appleby: Beast, both the creator and the business, and I think I try to consume pretty much everything his team puts out because I think they're just the best in class.

[00:33:46] Jack Appleby: As far as content goes.

[00:33:48] Jack Appleby: I was watching his manager, Reed, do an interview on Colin Samir where he's talking about the value of the person who engaged with short form versus long form content.

[00:34:00] Jack Appleby: This is more creator based than brand based.

[00:34:03] Jack Appleby: He's talking about how you go to VidCon and TikTok with 10 million followers, couldn't fill a room in person, but YouTubers with 10 million followers has lines out the door.

[00:34:15] Rachel Renock: Musicians have this problem too.

[00:34:17] Jack Appleby: Yeah.

[00:34:18] Jack Appleby: What is our relationship with the creators?

[00:34:24] Jack Appleby: You'll hear me talk a lot about we'll learn more about content from creators than brands.

[00:34:28] Jack Appleby: I fundamentally reject that we can't do what creators do on the brand side.

[00:34:32] Jack Appleby: I think we just choose not to.

[00:34:35] Jack Appleby: I think the thing that besides that tangent, I think the thing that we're going to keep seeing is there's just be more and more content in the world.

[00:34:46] Jack Appleby: One of the reasons content is not performing like content performance drops is not because you're being throttled.

[00:34:51] Jack Appleby: It's because there's more and more incredible content out there and you're losing the battle.

[00:34:57] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:34:59] Rachel Renock: Sounds like those two fundamental rules probably won't change either, right?

[00:35:05] Jack Appleby: I really think so.

[00:35:09] Jack Appleby: You've never once heard me say, like, fuck the algorithm.

[00:35:11] Jack Appleby: It's never come out of my mouth.

[00:35:13] Jack Appleby: No.

[00:35:13] Jack Appleby: My job is to beat the algorithm and make a content that performs.

[00:35:17] Jack Appleby: And I've had plenty of flops.

[00:35:19] Jack Appleby: For sure, I've had flops, but I don't know.

[00:35:22] Jack Appleby: We're getting paid to have very fun jobs, so I definitely get a little bent out of shape when I hear people blame things on the job.

[00:35:30] Jack Appleby: I blame things on the reality of the job.

[00:35:33] Rachel Renock: Yeah.

[00:35:34] Rachel Renock: Similar to, I think, the debate around AI.

[00:35:39] Rachel Renock: Is this detrimental?

[00:35:41] Rachel Renock: Is it a danger?

[00:35:42] Rachel Renock: Or will this push us to be even better when no longer standardized test taking makes sense?

[00:35:49] Rachel Renock: Or just writing a dry essay that you can generate with AI makes sense?

[00:35:52] Rachel Renock: Because anybody could just generate that.

[00:35:54] Rachel Renock: And instead education is pushed towards creative problem solving or real time contextual problem solving.

[00:35:59] Rachel Renock: Things that actually meet what we need in a world that's moving this quickly.

[00:36:04] Rachel Renock: There's also the argument these types of things can push us in the right direction in that regard by essentially making the baseline either way easier or way harder.

[00:36:14] Rachel Renock: Like if you're trying to beat the algorithm, the content is so much more competitive.

[00:36:17] Rachel Renock: You have to raise your bar and you have to keep raising that bar.

[00:36:19] Rachel Renock: And it's kind of a similar narrative around copywriting bot.

[00:36:25] Rachel Renock: The human mind is like a deep vessel of creativity.

[00:36:30] Jack Appleby: So coincidentally, my newsletter tomorrow is about exactly that.

[00:36:34] Jack Appleby: It's on how to use Chat GBT to aid you in your job because it's an incredible tool.

[00:36:41] Rachel Renock: Incredible.

[00:36:43] Jack Appleby: This phase of my career, I use it for a lot of chess posting things.

[00:36:48] Jack Appleby: I know my fundamentals, I know what to go to.

[00:36:50] Jack Appleby: But if I type in, give me 30 content ideas about something, it'll produce five things that I've forgotten are content trends.

[00:37:00] Jack Appleby: That thing's powerful.

[00:37:02] Rachel Renock: It's amazing.

[00:37:02] Jack Appleby: Yeah.

[00:37:03] Jack Appleby: My newsletter tomorrow is I basically had to build a fake brand, and it worked way better than I thought it was going to.

[00:37:10] Jack Appleby: I knew it was good, and it worked even better.

[00:37:13] Rachel Renock: Oh, my God, I'm really looking forward to reading that.

[00:37:15] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I know.

[00:37:16] Rachel Renock: I use it I say I use it to get rid of my blank page syndrome, which is like when you're staring at a blank page and you're like, so much anxiety, and you're like, draft me an outline for Blah.

[00:37:24] Rachel Renock: And then you have to rework it a lot because it can't just come off the shelf.

[00:37:28] Rachel Renock: But I think helping organize those thoughts or just get started, anything that helps you just get started is super valuable, I feel like, just overall.

[00:37:40] A Conversation About Freelancing and Future Social With Jack Appleby

[00:37:40] Rachel Renock: So, look, one last question before we depart for the evening, which, again, thank you so much for all the time and all the advice and all the insights.

[00:37:47] Rachel Renock: I mean, I just feel like this is super valuable for everybody, so really appreciate that.

[00:37:51] Rachel Renock: There are a lot of people going freelance right now, whether it's by choice or not, given the layoffs, the economy, which seems to be maybe in recession, we're not sure.

[00:38:01] Rachel Renock: What advice do you have for folks that are looking to take the leap or maybe just kind of took the leap?

[00:38:06] Rachel Renock: Not by choice.

[00:38:08] Jack Appleby: I'll caveat that I'm far from an expert in that space.

[00:38:10] Jack Appleby: It's pretty new to me, too.

[00:38:15] Jack Appleby: I think creatively marketing yourself is just really important for me.

[00:38:23] Jack Appleby: Like I said, all mine is inbound, and that's because I spent the last in one year.

[00:38:27] Jack Appleby: I built a LinkedIn following, and I.

[00:38:29] Rachel Renock: Think that's where LinkedIn's Lit yeah, LinkedIn is the best.

[00:38:33] Jack Appleby: It's a complete career hack.

[00:38:35] Jack Appleby: Totally.

[00:38:37] Jack Appleby: But think about how often really, if you're new to it, let's talk about saving 30% of the money you're going to make for this wonderful thing called taxes.

[00:38:49] Jack Appleby: Let's talk about the lifestyle you're trying to build for yourself, because me, personally, I'm not trying to work 80 hours a week.

[00:38:57] Jack Appleby: I'm a big believer in for me, I want to work 40 hours, maybe 50.

[00:39:02] Jack Appleby: I want to maximize my per hour earnings, and there's lots of ways for me to do that and then really enjoy my life.

[00:39:10] Jack Appleby: There's a couple of very prestigious jobs that I turned down because the pay wasn't right or the lifestyle wasn't right, and it was pretty easy for me to turn them down.

[00:39:19] Jack Appleby: Even one was truly a dream job for me to run my favorite basketball team, social.

[00:39:25] Jack Appleby: I was like, no, that doesn't provide the lifestyle that I'm looking for.

[00:39:28] Jack Appleby: So I think when you're starting out freelancing, just really consider how you want to spend your time.

[00:39:35] Jack Appleby: What your inbound versus outbound is if you need to do more outbound, how you're going to go find those clients and just understand what it's like to run your own business.

[00:39:45] Rachel Renock: Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

[00:39:46] Rachel Renock: I think just like even doing some of that outreach ahead of time, if you have the choice, if you're making this, if you're doing this by choice.

[00:39:55] Rachel Renock: I think we were servicing clients for a good six months before we really like my co founder and I really went in and started and went full time with it and quit our jobs.

[00:40:04] Rachel Renock: But I feel like that's getting a basis like that and just getting a lay of the land and understanding things.

[00:40:10] Rachel Renock: One thing that I've heard over and over again from the 70,000 freelancers on our platform is everyone does it a little bit differently.

[00:40:18] Rachel Renock: So there is no right answer, really, but I think you find what works for you and figure out a way to repeat that.

[00:40:24] Jack Appleby: And that's been my biggest hurdles.

[00:40:27] Jack Appleby: I've got a lot of fear of freelancing.

[00:40:29] Jack Appleby: I've got some money trauma from some family stuff in the past.

[00:40:32] Jack Appleby: I have a very expensive invoice that I need to send that I just haven't sent because it makes me uncomfortable.

[00:40:45] Jack Appleby: But the thing that I'm working through is there is no right way to do this.

[00:40:52] Jack Appleby: Do the basics to put yourself legally and in tax situations that make sense, but then just listen to your clients.

[00:41:00] Jack Appleby: If you're already talking to them, you're not going to get burned for doing it with your format.

[00:41:06] Jack Appleby: They will have discussions with you.

[00:41:09] Jack Appleby: Actually, that's my big one for everyone.

[00:41:10] Jack Appleby: Just be easy to work with.

[00:41:12] Jack Appleby: If you're easy to work with, you'll be able to make as many mistakes as you want.

[00:41:17] Rachel Renock: Yeah, peace of mind.

[00:41:20] Rachel Renock: It's a great thing to sell.

[00:41:21] Rachel Renock: Just peace of mind.

[00:41:21] Rachel Renock: Like, don't worry, we got this.

[00:41:23] Rachel Renock: We're going to get this done.

[00:41:26] Rachel Renock: Amazing, jack, thank you again so much.

[00:41:28] Rachel Renock: If folks want to follow along, if they want to subscribe to the newsletter, if they want to follow you on the channels, on the socials, where's the best place to do that?

[00:41:36] Jack Appleby: Look me up on LinkedIn.

[00:41:38] Jack Appleby: My name is Jack Appleby and you'll see, I think the subscribe link's on there.

[00:41:43] Jack Appleby: I hope it is.

[00:41:43] Jack Appleby: That's where I publish most of my content now.

[00:41:45] Jack Appleby: I'm obviously on Twitter, too.

[00:41:47] Jack Appleby: At Jappleby.

[00:41:49] Jack Appleby: And then if you just Google actually, don't Google my newsletter right now.

[00:41:53] Jack Appleby: Just follow me on Social and I'll be tweeting out new links that are going to a new version of the newsletter.

[00:42:00] Jack Appleby: But yeah, hit me a reply, send me a message, like always down the top people about this kind of stuff.

[00:42:06] Rachel Renock and Jack Appleby: Post-Leap Conversation

[00:42:06] Rachel Renock: Amazing.

[00:42:07] Rachel Renock: Thank you, everybody for joining us.

[00:42:08] Rachel Renock: Appreciate the kind words in the chat.

[00:42:10] Rachel Renock: This was awesome conversation.

[00:42:11] Rachel Renock: We'll post a recap.

[00:42:12] Rachel Renock: We'll do all the cutting and the posting and the things.

[00:42:16] Rachel Renock: But we'll be back next month with another episode of the leap towards the end of March.

[00:42:21] Rachel Renock: I'm like, what month is it?

[00:42:22] Rachel Renock: Yep.

[00:42:22] Rachel Renock: Towards the end of March.

[00:42:23] Rachel Renock: And we're looking forward to seeing everybody after an adventurous well, we're not going to go to South By, but I'm going to pop by Austin just for a second.

[00:42:31] Rachel Renock: Are you going to South By?

[00:42:32] Jack Appleby: I'm not.

[00:42:33] Jack Appleby: Not this year.

[00:42:34] Rachel Renock: Man.

[00:42:34] Rachel Renock: Things expensive and crazy isn't playing around the wings.

[00:42:41] Rachel Renock: All right, folks, have a great evening, everybody, and we'll see you back here next month.

[00:42:44] Rachel Renock: Jack, thanks again.

[00:42:45] Rachel Renock: Really appreciate it.

[00:42:45] Jack Appleby: Thanks, guys.

[00:42:46] Rachel Renock: Good night.